Fix Your Staff Problems (scroll down for video and podcast)
Need to fix your staff problems? We cover a wide range of issues in this interview with Deborah, Danni and Dina from HR Staff n Stuff.
Here is the transcript:
Olivia:
My name is Olivia. I work at Officeway, we are a business-to-business supplier of office furniture. I have a couple of hats. I also do Jolly Joeys Singing for Kids. I run this SEMBA networking business group and I’m an admin on the Bayside Mothers Group. So I do quite a few varied things but they all have one thing in common which is bringing people together.
The reason I created this particular networking group is because I found for Officeway that I was going to business events and meeting people swapping business cards and I wanted a way to keep in touch with them and get to know everybody. That is where I met these lovely people from HR staff and Stuff. But it was really on the on the (SEMBA) networking page that we started chatting to each other and we actually started using their services. Whenever there was issues at work previously, we’d either go to Fair Work or perhaps spend lots of money with solicitor and we didn’t actually know such a service existed and they’ve been fabulous for us so thank you.
This is Deborah as I said you’re the director and maybe you can tell me about yourself and what you do?
Deborah:
Hi. I was senior level manager in businesses prior to starting HR Staff and Stuff. I found there was a real need for small and medium businesses to get access to professional HR services. They (business owners) can’t afford to have a HR manager embedded in the business, but they need help.
HR is all about people. And people want to do the right thing by people, so we started HR Staff and Stuff and I’ve got a team of 4 HR advisers but a really great team helping a really wide and diverse group of clients with all of their people needs. And we try to be really flexible and fluid so that we can provide the services in the way that that particular business needs it. So as you know for your business, we offer an ad hoc service where you guys just call us whenever you want and we help you with whatever we you need and other businesses we might go to regularly like a full day or a week and act as the internal HR manager for those businesses kind of implementing a whole strategic HR plan.
Olivia:
So I’ve been asking people on Facebook to let me know what kind of what questions they have and what they find are the biggest issues for them. But I thought first I’d start just by asking you, because you deal with people all the time, actually asking you directly for help. What do you find is the biggest issue?
Deborah:
I’m going to ask Dina and Danni to both answer for them as well, because we all deal with different clients so it could be slightly different. I think for me, the main reason why people come to us is because they have a difficult situation with an employee and they just don’t know how to manage it. They know there are general rules and regulations around terminating people. They don’t want to just go straight to that, but they just don’t know what to do. There’s either a relationship issue, a toxic employee, something’s going on that’s really they’re not coping with and they don’t know how to deal with it. So generally we start there. And that would be I think the number one thing that most businesses come to us for in the first place.
What about you Dina?
A lot of the clients that I help need some foundational HR documents to be put in place and that’s things like employment contracts and policies. I also help with recruitment. So that’s quite varied and that really helps us establish a relationship with our clients, so then we can help them with other things like retention and engagement and really exciting programs to keep staff rewarded and happy. So that’s also something that we do. Danni?
Danni:
You’ve probably covered most of my big issues. Some of the other areas that I’ve been helping in lately have been more in the manufacturing side and WorkCover and helping to get people back to work and managing risk and things like that. So that’s just a little bit more diverse.
Olivia:
What do you mean managing risk?
Danni:
Having a look at risk assessments for the business and having a look to see whether they have got things in place that would stop people from potentially injuring themselves or hurting themselves and things like that.
Olivia:
So you look at you look at a workplace and look at OH & S issues?
Danni:
Yes. It’s checking whether they are meeting regulations, in line with legislation, making it a really happy, healthy productive place to work and minimizing all of the risks. I have a strong background in blue collar, so I help a lot of the blue collar companies that have got a small warehouse or something like that.
Olivia:
I didn’t know you offered that service!
Danni:
We do indeed!
Deborah:
Danni goes out and tests people for drug and alcohol. She’s an accredited drug and alcohol tester and we found many people on ice working in factories and stuff that can really put other employees and the business at real risk. So Danni got accredited in drug and alcohol testing
Olivia:
Wow!
Deborah:
There’s a bit of an epidemic and she’s helped businesses with putting in place policies so we can test people. It’s reasonably common in manufacturing and blue-collar areas, which is why we invested in Danni getting accredited, because a lot of our clients don’t know what to do. If they’ve got suspicions that people are taking drugs, and when you’re working with power tools or lifting heavy objects and stuff, you’re putting the business and other employees at risk of injury or death, if you’ve got somebody off their head operating something. Yes, so Danni does some of that and then helps people find rehab and helps re-enter them into the business once they’ve come off the drugs.
Danni:
You’d be very surprised. With the ice epidemic now or more with methamphetamines, it is very common from people women between 30 and 45, working in an office environment. It is becoming more and more common because of the fact that they’re trying to be a mother, working, doing all these things, that they engage in that. So that’s the statistic that came out a couple of weeks ago and that’s the new buzz area.
Olivia:
But you’re finding from your experience anyway. Oh my God, that’s terrible, especially with the synthetic ones. They’re so bad.
OK, (looking at the screen) well I can’t see any questions yet there but anyone out there, if you’ve got questions, feel free to post them.
I have been asking for some input from people (on what staff questions they have). For example, people not showing up (to work) at the last minute. Last minute notice for sick leave, when it might not be ridgy didge.
Deborah:
Look, it’s a common problem that a lot of employers have. The bigger answer is that if people are happy, productive and engaged in work, they generally won’t take fake sickies. So it does really always come back to culture. And that’s driven by leadership behaviour. So you can do all the core values workshops in the world, you know we’ve got our own, but it is about how the leaders set and expect behaviours, so you know you can write a policy about it. I think the big piece is the engagement, but you obviously put in place a simple policy that sets out very clear rules on what’s expected if you’re sick, and then manage to that. So if somebody calls in sick, we know we write in our policies generally that you have to call. You can’t text or email in if you’re sick. You must call and you must give X amount of notice and if you’re sick either side of a public holiday or two days in a row you must provide a medical certificate and if you don’t follow the rules and the annual leave process or the sick leave process, then you don’t get paid. And then if somebody is establishing a pattern of absence, if they’re doing it regularly, so say the day after pay day all of a sudden they’re missing in action every month or every week or every fortnight, you can start to put some other measures in place. It does come down to having really open and honest conversations with people though. You have to sit down and say, “Hey, you know every time I pay you, you take the next day off. It’s not really okay. What’s going on? Do you have an issue that I need to help you manage? If not, then your expectation is that you come to work. It’s your responsibility.” So, honest and open communication. Don’t let things fester or get away from you and put policies in place that you can manage too, so it’s not “Olivia said you have to come to work”, it’s, “Our company policy is that this is what you have to do.”
Olivia:
Actually, I noticed that was one of the blog’s that you shared on our SEMBA Networking page. It was like if, something happens, then deal with it quickly. Don’t let it fester.
Deborah:
Yes, well things don’t stop happening. I have a saying, “What gets rewarded gets repeated”. And so if you reward good behaviour, and what I mean by reward is just recognise and acknowledge it and say, “Thank you” and “Great work!”, so whatever you reward, people will do again, because they want that to be repeated. They want to hear that they’re doing good work. But the same is true if you reward bad behaviour, it’ll continue to happen. So by refusing to acknowledge that it’s happening or just not doing anything about it is basically like condoning it. Condoning it is rewarding it. People will just continue to do it. So if there’s something that is happening in your business that you don’t like, stop it! You don’t have to put up with it! That’s my big message. You don’t have to put up with it! There are things you can do!
Olivia:
Someone mentioned that sometimes they’re very friendly and they have a lovely relationship with the staff and they find it tricky to fulfil the role of having to pull people up on things.
Deborah:
There are a couple of things I would say to that. The first thing is that you actually have a job to do. This is my little saying: the job of a manager is to enhance the profit and operation of the business through your efforts and the efforts of your team. That’s your job. So you can be as friendly as you like, but there’s a difference between friendly and friends, and you can’t be friends at work. You can be friendly but you have to do your job, and if being friends with somebody prevents you from doing your job you have to rethink your priorities.
But, I know that all sounds fine, well and good in theory. The practical sense is that if they were really your friends, they wouldn’t take advantage of you being in a manager’s role. And all of that aside, if something happens you just have to address that. It doesn’t have to be a big conflict. If somebody’s just coming late three days in a row and they’re your friend, you don’t have to make it a big drama. You don’t have to go, “Oh my God, you’re my friend and you’ve come in late three days in a row!” You just have to say, “Hey, Dina. You’ve been late the last three days that really has an impact on our business and the team. I’d really appreciate your being on time in future. Please don’t let me down again.” That’s it! It doesn’t have to be a conversation. You just set a standard down and walk away and leave them to it. But by sticking your head in the sand and doing nothing changes nothing so it’ll just continue to happen and then other employees will be disgruntled by the fact that somebody’s getting away with doing something that is not in line with your values or expectations and you’re not doing anything about it. And the number one issue one earth for employees in the workplace is sitting by watching somebody under-perform or behave badly and the manager doing nothing about it. That’s the number one thing employees are irked by in the workplace. So if you have a problem, do something, even if it’s just a small conversation. If it escalates into something bigger, then take appropriate more formal action.
Olivia:
Okay, so what makes a good manager?
Deborah:
You know, that’s a really big question and would probably take 17 hours to answer. But if I had to really drill it down, I think that the best managers, and the word manager and leader can be interchanged right these days, right? They use both. But the best leaders and managers for me are the ones that are authentic and genuine. That lead by example, set clear expectations, that actually care about, nurture and reward their employees. And I think it really comes down to: be authentic, be genuine, set clear expectations, set people up for success, care about them nurture them and build a team that actually enjoy working for you and creating good outcomes for you. There are a couple of sayings that I like. One is them that a leader is someone (for whom) people want to do what needs to get done. So if people want to do things for you because they need to get done, no matter how down and dirty it is, if they want to do it and if they’re compelled to do, then you’re leading them well.
I’ve just came back from a two-day Leadership Summit. I’ve got a zillion quotes I can throw you, but that’s what I think makes a good manager.
Olivia:
Excellent! Okay, someone else mentioned a problem of sometimes having staff that can be lazy and lack initiative themselves.
Deborah:
Oh, I think that’s a perfect one for Danni to help you. Because Danni has been dealing with this lots lately.
Danni:
It’s about what Deborah said before and sitting down and having that open and honest conversation with them. But it’s about ensuring that they understand the expectations and setting them objectives. Usually when a manager sets an objective for a staff member, they’re not going to be engaged, so we really promote sitting down with your staff member and working out clear objectives together and getting their buy-in on things that that need to be achieved and they take ownership of it. If you direct somebody and tell somebody what to do all the time and how to do it, they’re usually disengaged. We have a specific client at the moment where we have some disengaged people and it’s because the manager keeps coming in and saying, “You need to do this. You have to get this done. You guys are lazy. You’re not doing this. You’re not doing that.” And in fact they’re lazy because they’re desperately unhappy at the moment. So we’ve sat down with them and put together a strategy, and said, “This is the objectives of the business. This is what needs to happen. We would like your input how are we going to get there together as a team. What help can we give you? What support can we give you? What training and development do you need? Is everybody on board and going forward with that?
Olivia:
Can I ask you on that one, did you talk to the employees or did you help the managers to know what to say?
Danni:
We coached everybody through it, so yes I actually got involved in that and I’ve now become their embedded HR manager, so yes, I got involved very much with that but in other cases we’ve coached the manager on how to do that.
We’ve also had another client recently where people weren’t lazy and not motivated, they were just the status quo. They were coming to work doing their job and doing it pretty well and going home but there was no trying to go over and above or no vibe no culture or anything like that. So I actually went in there and ran a core values workshop and we found that they had no core values within the business. So we ran a core values workshop where everybody in the company attended and developed together as a team, as a company, their own core values. And what their expectations were of themselves and of each other in terms of their behaviour at work. And I’ve got to admit in the last sort of two months, three months since that’s happened, the entire business has lifted. Everybody is coming in, they’re motivated, they’re engaged, they’re actually saying to each other, “What you did before was actually really demonstrating our core values. That’s fantastic!” And everybody has really jumped on board. It’s the first time that I’ve ran one of these workshops and I’ve learnt this from Deb, it’s not that I was sceptical, but didn’t realise what an impact it made on everybody, just holding each other accountable for their behaviours at work and what they believe in and what their company stood for and it’s really important.
Olivia:
That’s interesting, isn’t it? Because everyone wants to feel, I guess, good about what it is they do at work and proud of themselves and that it’s not all on their shoulders so…
Danni:
Yes
Olivia:
So that’s really interesting, because at the end of the day you’re dealing with people and emotions and it’s quite complex and quite a skill set.
Danni:
Yeah, it is.
Deborah:
But equally, on top of everything that Danni said, people need to understand how their role impacts the big picture. So, this is something that we’re just really trying to do with our clients now and get them to understand, they can have a clearer business strategy…and some smaller businesses, let’s face it, I think a lot of your audience are probably small businesses that haven’t really sat there and thought, “Well do I have a clear business strategy or business plan?” and I mean most businesses don’t.
Some might have a B-HAG, a big, hairy, audacious goal. We have a B-HAG. And some businesses might have a real growth strategy, “We want to achieve this by this time, in the next couple of years or whatever.” People need to understand what their role is in that, and how their actions today fit with achieving that. And so when you can make that clear for people they actually have a sense of purpose. As I just as I mentioned, I went to a Leadership Summit run by the Financial Review for the last two days, which was a really fantastic experience. And one of the things that really came out of that is that companies need to be purpose led. So, it doesn’t matter small a business you are or how big a business you are. If you have a really clear purpose, everybody knows where you’re going and why you’re here that gives people a sense of purpose to come to work every day. It doesn’t matter if our purpose is to sell twenty thousand shoes a week, or if their purpose is to make people feel good by selling great shoes. It doesn’t matter what the purpose is, but purpose brings people together and gives them a single thing to focus on. So they understand where their little piece that they do every day fits into the bigger picture. That’s important to people.
Olivia:
I’m finding this really fascinating, so I hope everyone out there is enjoying it as much as I am, because I just think, you know, people are fascinating and bringing out the best in them (is fascinating). And, you know, people can have misunderstandings or resentment or politics…I think politics was one of the things people ask me to cover, “Politics is the worst.” And all these things happen, but if you can cut through that…what you’re doing, it’s giving people a sense of value in their role in the company.
Deborah:
Well, if you have a clear set of values, you’ve got a clear purpose for the company, you call out bad behaviour when it happens, so either by peers calling it out or by managers saying, “Hey, that’s not how we do things around here.” Like I said, it doesn’t have to be a big conflict, “You must come into a meeting for a formal warning because you behave like this.” You can just say, “Hey, Amie, that’s not how we do things around here. I noticed that you were doing this, we really prefer not to do that around here. We don’t like to be politicking. We don’t like game playing, which is like, we just like everyone to get on with their job, so you can leave that stuff behind, and when you come (to work) this is what we expect from you.” It doesn’t have to be a big conflict conversation, but it sets a very clear message for Amie. By the way, that’s hypothetical (laughs).
But you know, when you’ve got a clear purpose, clear values, set clear expectations for people and give them an opportunity to be their best and do their best work, you have generally a happy engaged team that are producing results to help you achieve your strategic plan. And they’re the pieces that a lot of business owners actually forget. They think, “Well I’ve told them what to do. I hired them to do that. Can’t they just get on and do it?” But there’s actually a whole lot of other stuff that goes behind having really great people doing really great work for you. And one of my sayings is, because I’ve got lots of them (laughs), one of them is most people don’t get out of bed wanting to go to work and do a bad days work. Most people want to contribute in a meaningful way, in some way and they want to go home having a sense of achievement, or at least saying, “I did a good day’s work.” Have a champagne, play with the kids, go to bed. People don’t like that ugly yucky feeling of going to work in a place where they feel disconnected or there’s politics and they don’t want to contribute to that they don’t really want to be there. So it’s up to the business owners to lead that from the front. It has to be led from the front.
Olivia:
And I guess, well, that reminds me of some issues I’ve heard from people I know about communication. Complaining about communication. Because things break down things don’t work at work. You know, deliveries don’t happen on time or whatever it might be because there’s been a breakdown in communication, so I guess whenever there’s some sort of issue, address it, is the major message I’m getting.
Deborah:
Absolutely address it, but more importantly, I would encourage every business owner to not allow a blame culture to exist in your business. A blame culture doesn’t help anybody and it certainly doesn’t allow people…you have to allow people to fail. Okay, so a couple of things on that, really… you can’t have a blame culture because people will be scared to do things and get it wrong. You don’t want people coming in to work to be scared. You want people to come to work and use their initiative and try things and come up with ideas to get better, right? We’re in a world now where we have to be constantly innovating and constantly improving and constantly saying one step ahead. And if you’ve got a team of people that are too scared to try anything new or do anything new for fear of being blamed, you won’t keep up, right? So you’ve got to create an environment where people can fall over, can fail, can get up and try again and work through what the solution is. So move from blame focus to solutions focused, “Okay it happened. Doesn’t matter who did it. What’s important is how did it happen? Where was the process broken? What do we need to do to fix that? Why didn’t the delivery go out on time? Not because Amie screwed up today and didn’t get it out on time, but it didn’t go out on time because of this piece of the process was wrong and that’s what we need to fix. People will make mistakes. Of course. But if they’re blamed, if there’s a blame culture, they’ll never improve.
Olivia:
I guess the other thing that can be tricky for people, and we got our contracts redone with you guys, is knowing all those sort of things about legislation and having contracts right.
Deborah:
Look it is a big issue and I’ve got to say, unfortunately Fair Work has a philosophy that ignorance is not an excuse. If you’ve decided to own a business and have staff, you have obligations and it’s your responsibility to know what they are. And there can be a minefield of things to work through and you can definitely get lots of information from Fair Work. There’s lots of information out there you can Google and find, but sometimes it’s really hard to navigate that. And sometimes it’s really hard, you get conflicting information and you’re not sure. That’s where we generally start helping with a lot of our clients with all of that kind of legislative stuff and employer obligations. But you can’t get away from it. Unfortunately there’s no way of circumventing it, but also we have our philosophy and our business we don’t actually want to work with people that want to circumvent the law. We actually we actually believe in the power of engaged happy employees that are being looked after and employees are doing the right thing by them, will give that back tenfold. So we won’t actually work with clients that say to us,”I just want to find the cheapest way to get this done and I don’t care if I rip people off.” We won’t help somebody pay somebody below their minimum entitlements, so if you’re out there and you want that, don’t call us. That’s because there are minimum entitlements for a reason. There are obligations. You do have to know the rules around termination, around redundancy, around what award your employees should be governed under, what classifications they are, what breaks they’re entitled to, what leave entitlements they have. Even things like in Victoria, if your employee gets caught up for jury duty, unfortunately you’re expected to pay them their salary for as long as that court case goes on, even if it’s six months whereas if you’ve got an employee in South Australia of Queensland you don’t have to pay anything at all. So you have to know what you have to know, but you can call us when you do!
Olivia:
Yes, I would recommend going through you, because trying to find the answers by going on the Fair Work website can be confusing. Just go to someone who can tell you the answer.
Deborah:
Look, Fair Work are a great body, but I will say that they’re not necessarily HR specialists or lawyers that you’re getting on the phone. So we’ve done this as an experiment. We’ve called Fair Work three or four times in a row with exactly the same question and being given exactly different answers.
Olivia:
Well, I should probably bring this to a close. So thank you very much. Do you have any parting message that you’d want to share?
Deborah:
I guess I would say that being a business owner is really challenging, but it’s really rewarding as well. And I think I would encourage any business owner out there that’s struggling with anything, go and find expert help to help you. Because you can’t be good at everything, so go and get somebody that’s expert in marketing and get advice from them or financial support or HR support. But if you want your business to be the best it can be, get the expert help in the areas that you don’t feel comfortable with regardless of what they. Because your business will flourish if you get external support with those things, rather than try to think that you’re supposed to know everything. Because you’re not. You’re supposed to be good at what you’re good at, and gather the right people around you to help with the rest. Whether that’s employees, whether it’s consultants, whether it’s contractors. My message is: surround yourself with good people that know there’s stuff in the areas where you don’t have knowledge.
Olivia:
Okay well I’ve this absolutely fascinating, because it’s all about bringing out the best in people. So thank you very much. And thank you to all the team.
So let us know what you thought. If there were any questions we didn’t cover. If there’s any topics you want in the future. And have a great weekend! See you!
Interview conducted by Olivia de Sousa-Ferres
You can contact HR Staff n Stuff here
You can find the SEMBA South East Melbourne Business Associates Facebook page here.
